I'd love to play a video game that probes the mind of the poor misunderstood Nazi (or national socialist). I mean, aren't these horrible video games just objectifying them? We want, rather DEMAND a game so we can see how Ralf or Heinrich feels after a blitzkrieg or a hard day at the camps. I mean, don't Nazi's have feelings too?

/ Sarcasm off.

It was pretty much black and white. The Nazi's are and will continue to be evil scum. I could care less about the grey area. If anything make a came about the White Rose or partisans. That would be interesting.

Look, I'm not saying "Nazis are great!" Not anything even remotely like it. But they were *people*, not monsters - they were people who did monstrous things. Why? What was it that made someone actually think that way? To do the unspeakably evil things that they did?

Mindlessly dehumanizing them and saying they're just pure evil really oversimplifies things. No, it doesn't make it excusable. No, it doesn't make them fine, decent human beings. But it also makes them real, makes the evil tangible - if anything, much, much worse.

Welcome! :)

I think helava raises a good point. Yes, they were evil, and that is exactly black and white, as you point out, annelid, and which I totally agree with.

I do think that we can learn from history. We can better fight evil when we can learn to recognize it in its earlier, less potent stages. And we can understand that better, if we understand what weakness and what hatred and fear lead to things like the Nazi movement or the KKK movement. When we can learn to recognize it before it has gone to the place of no return, we can't stop it except with violence. I'd like to see the 8 year old that grows up to be a Nazi when he is 18, and be able to figure out how to change that person's path, so that they never end up there.

That's not to say that Call of Duty explores that aspect or anything...

So what, it's just another WWII shooter. That's my favorite period in American history and I enjoy it.

No I agree completely. Why not throw us up a game where we play a mislead youth. a German teen "forced" into the war we speak of? I mean you all have been pointing the fingers of hatred toward these "evil" people. But have ya ever thought hey wait a minute. They faught for a dictator who would have killed them if they hadnt. What about those nazis? Is it fair to demoralize them? What about how certain countries feel about the us. Who are there telling them how to live. How to wage war. How to fight for themselves. Aye we're helping Iraq form an army right now. But for what? So they can lash out at us later for some mistake we make? And granted there are some who want democracy in their small excuse for a country. But then there are the average joes. The working class people there. Who dont want the us there. And dont want the army were installing. You have to play the mediator sometimes. And not the dictator.

http://arstechnica.com/journals/thumbs.ars/2008/11/11/we-are-comfortable-with-nazis-as-demons-this-is-wrong

This article does a great job expressing competently what I was hamfistedly trying to say:

The Nazis weren't monsters, they were people who did terrible things. The party was huge, participation was nearly compulsory, and people tend to forget that not every German serving in the army worked in the camps. They were people, and they were not unique; studies show that more people than you think would be more than willing to kill if they were told it was okay by someone in authority. As with most noteworthy instances of history being made, it was normal people in extraordinary circumstances; there was nothing inherently evil about the way many German soldiers served. Unfortunately, the German people are now always portrayed as monsters, killers, empty-eyed targets in game after game. My son goes to a German language school, and it's not a rare thing for someone to crack a joke about World War II when they hear him speak the language.

We shudder at Nazi iconography because of the images we carry with us of the Holocaust and persecution from that time period, but even that reaction is limited and simplified. Germans and Catholics were sent to the camps too, remember. As were homosexuals and Romani.

The issue of creating bad guys in video games is an important one, and it's sad that conversations about World War II, the issues of responsibility and duty, and even the nature of evil get lost because we're all so comfortable turning the very human people who fought on both sides of that war into either heroes or villains. The one-note portrayal of German people isn't okay just because in your mind they're alien, and having a gut reaction when you see a people you more readily identify with act monstrously should give you more of an understanding that just because someone doesn't look like you, doesn't mean that they are any less human, or that they don't deserve to be placed in the proper place, within

the proper context, of history.

here we have a shooter, how much difference can there be from one to another other than story line?

The nazi's weren't forced to join.
They did it under free will.

So now we're supposed to feel sorry for the poor misguided Nazi's? That they were misunderstood? That they were "forced" into doing what they did? The people who were forced (into cattlecars and the like) were Jews,Homosexuals,Romani's and the like.

So what's next? Singing kumbaya with some Nazi's in South America?

CR-9mm - nice moral equivalence.



On a lighter note I'm glad i sold off my games.

Whoa there. I think the point of that article snippet is that we as human beings better understand the enormity of evil when you realize that other *human beings* took place in the unforgiveable acts. It's *more* horrific that they once were people, small babies, that grew up to be kids, that grew up to be adolescents, that grew up to be adults, that breathed the same air we breathe, that had similar life experiences we had, THEN became what they did, then if we just imagine them to be pure evil that simply came into being suddenly, as if from Mars.

It is when they are humanized that we CAN see how utterly depraved and horrific the acts they committed were and learn from history. If we just imagine that they were just born evil from birth, that means we can't learn anything from history.

Whatever.
You can rationalize all this stuff none stop...but the end result is that the Nazi's are scum/evil and yes Monsters.

I finished here....enjoy your video game circle jerks.

The point of this whole discussion is that the portrayal of Nazis as complete inhuman monsters makes the evil that they did trivial. If you're pure evil, then genocide is just something you do on a Wednesday morning.

The *point* is that Nazis were humans. People. Someone loved them as a child, and they undoubtedly had different dreams in their youth. Yet something drove them to the point where they were committing acts of genocide, and somehow not killing themselves out of shame and horror. How does that happen to a person?

Do you think that we're *really* so different? Post 9/11, there were people screaming for the government to nuke the entire Middle East from top to bottom. Yeah, it's more abstract - hit a button there, kill a billion half a world away. Is it morally any different? No - the difference is that we didn't do it. But there were people - Americans - that wanted this to happen, and if they had their finger on the button, they'd have pulled the trigger.

Could you not sympathize with someone who lost their loved ones in 9/11 wanting revenge? Sure you could. Does that make their desire for revenge any less wrong? If they'd acted on it, does it make them any less of a monster? Are you so naive that you don't think there are parallels to events in the past?

What you're suggesting is that no discussion of motivation is even possible - that Nazis were pure evil, end of discussion. If that's what you want, fine - don't discuss it. But there is value in the discussion - not to rationalize or justify their actions, but to understand how such a thing occurred, and how a person can be motivated to do such monstrous things.

That a game could be part of that discussion, that it might show you something deeper would be interesting, instead of mindlessly dehumanizing your opponents and trivializing the entire concept of war.

Well spoken Helava. I couldnt agree more.

There was soemthing else I wanted to say but I completely forgot it having read you previous comment. It was on the button bro.

Thanks, CR.

Wait, what do you think I'm rationalizing?! Don't you and I agree that Nazis are terrible and what they did was a horrific stain upon humanity? Never did I justify anything they did. That would be disgusting. I am in favor of learning from the mistakes of history so that we do NOT repeat it, and understanding the conditions and mentality that led to the Nazi regime is how we do that. If we assume they were just born evil from day one, straight out of the womb, then how can we make sure we never repeat the horrors of the Holocaust??

... Or what helava said.

Your not in favor of learning.
Your in favor of some video game company coming out with a new game.

If you were truly in favor of "learning" then do your thesis on the root causes of genocide / fascists.etc.

Volunteer with the SPLC. Or the ACLU, the Holocaust Museum,etc.
Read about the Rape of Nanking or the Bataan Death Marches.

Waxing poetic on some dopey game site and saying "We need to find the root causes of why they did what they did" is utterly pointless.

Why would you assume that I'm not in favor of learning or that I'm not engaged with societal issues in real life? In fact, I loooove learning new things everyday. I read up on all sorts of topics that I enjoy. I read about historic events, new technologies, sociological studies, and yes, entertainment.

A couple of major studies recently have shown that children can learn better from engaging in interactive learning, versus passive learning. Videogames is just one new form of media, just one more way to reach people with a message. I think that books, music, movies, internet, games, in-class learning are a part of a life-long learning process.

If we can engage younger children or even people who don't care about society and history via something they enjoy, like videogames, why shouldn't we try? Why throw out even one way we can reach people and teach them (or learn, ourselves) something useful?

Teachers I know and parents with kids tell me that every moment with the kids can be a teaching moment. You take something that the kid is interested in, and ask them deeper questions about the situation, guide them, and teach them. Why throw away a teaching moment, because "it's just a game"?

I do agree with you that it's even better to go out and DO something, rather than just to passively learn.

That's why I'm marching this weekend with a protest group fighting for gay marriage! :)

Let me also add that I appreciate that you came back and responded. It's good to have and discuss dissenting opinions, otherwise we'll be trapped in an echo chamber.

I'm absolutely in favor of learning. I'm *also* in favor of a game company coming out with a new game. I want games be more than just mindless entertainment. Games have the potential to put the player into someone else's shoes - even if they're virtual ones.

People learn through experience. You can read about the Rape of Nanking, or the Holocaust, or the Trail of Tears, or any number of other events, and get a good feeling for what it might be like to have to have gone through those horrors. But in a game, you can experience it yourself.

Maybe the problem is that you think I'm talking about trivializing it because you think I'm talking about entertainment? Something like Grave of the Fireflies is an extraordinarily moving, deeply involving and 'educational' cartoon. Is its message of postwar suffering any less valid because of that?

I'd also bring up the powerful examples of Schindler's List and Life Is Beautiful for works of cinema that I feel like better made me understand the horrors of WWII, better than books alone. They still haunt me.

You know what im in favor of? All of you learning what it means to be "open-minded". I mean seriously. Do you beelive everything history throws at you? If that were the case the world would have been doomed centuries ago. The fact is, to undermind something you honestly know nothing about is just plain stupid. Do I beleive that abe lincoln freed slaves? No. Do I beleive that the civil war was based on racism? No. I dont beleive anything. You have to look at it form other points. Just because someone wrote that "Nazi's" Which I quote because you all seem to be speaking of them as a whole. As appose to individuals, were all evil. Is just plain stupid. And I having read anything you posted about it made me stupider. Can you tell me the exact nbumber of nazis there were? Can you name each one of these men or woman? No you cant. So you certyainly cannot tell me every detauil about their lives during the war. How do you know there werent thousands of nazis who were completly against hitlers cause? And how can you

Well apparently It cut me off. So all in all my point was. When it comes to war you are often forced to do unwilling things to others in order to look out for number 1.

My previous comment was much better and more descriptive. But I just dont feel like ranting anymore.

To "Cr-9mm" :

Mr. Madison, what you've just said is one of the most insanely idiotic things I have ever heard. At no point in your rambling, incoherent response were you even close to anything that could be considered a rational thought. Everyone in this room is now dumber for having listened to it. I award you no points, and may God have mercy on your soul.

----------------------

Using your "logic" can you names each of these men or women who perished @ the hands of the Nazi's?

"How do you know there werent thousands of nazis who were completly against hitlers cause?"

Answer - apparently not too many ...ie...how long was WW2? How many countries did Hitlers armies invade? How many death camps were there? Yes, you can trot out the very few who wanted to dispose Hitler and the whole national socialist movement..see Colonel Claus von Stauffenberg.

and this "GEM" :

"Do you beelive everything history throws at you? If that were the case the world would have been doomed centuries ago. The fact is, to undermind something you honestly know nothing about is just plain stupid."

Ummm, the old adage holds true, if you forget the past your doomed to repeat it, my misguided horrific spelling friend.

To undermind something you HONESTLY don't know about? Are you utterly insane or have you been ingesting paint chips at a rapid pace as of late?

Let's see...what we know about Nazi's :

1. Racial laws.
2. Concentration camps
3. Medical experiments on pow's and inmates

and so on. Don't give me the crap that "we didn't know...or we were following orders".

People knew but didn't act. It's better to be a sheeple and watch from the darkness than to do something, anything.

But yes, carry on rationalizing the poor misunderstood nazi's.